
Sage College Publishing Podcast
A collection of podcasts developed by Sage College Publishing. Learn more at collegepublishing.sagepub.com.
Sage College Publishing Podcast
Making Money Real Part 1: Foundations of Financial Literacy
Bring fresh perspectives on financial literacy into your classroom. Sage author and personal finance expert Kristen Carioti shares practical methods for teaching budgeting, saving, and investing in ways that connect with students. This conversation offers innovative tools, real-life examples, and strategies to engage diverse learners. Whether you want to enhance your curriculum or help students build lasting financial independence, you’ll find actionable insights to make a difference.
Summary
Empowering students with financial literacy is essential for fostering their long-term success. In this episode, Sage author and personal finance expert Dr. Kristen Carioti discusses equipping students with the skills and confidence they need to take charge of their finances. From practical budgeting and emergency fund strategies to reframing financial habits through a growth mindset, this conversation is packed with actionable advice for educators and learners alike. Dr. Carioti emphasizes the importance of making financial literacy relatable and accessible, addressing the diverse needs of students and the systemic challenges they may face. Whether you’re trying to strengthen your curriculum or empower students to break free from living paycheck to paycheck, this episode offers tools to make an immediate impact.
What We Talk About
- Financial literacy as a life skill: Why mastering financial basics is essential for student success both in and beyond college.
- Escaping the paycheck-to-paycheck trap: Practical strategies like emergency funds, budgeting, and reducing debt dependency.
- The power of a growth mindset: How reframing mistakes as learning opportunities empowers students to manage their finances with confidence.
- Investing is for everyone: Breaking down the basics of IRAs, 401(k)s, and the importance of early investing for wealth creation.
- Empowering women in finance: Addressing financial literacy gaps and societal perceptions to help women gain control of their financial futures.
- Technology’s dual role: Using tools like online calculators for financial planning while staying vigilant against scams and misinformation.
- Making financial education universal: Why including personal finance courses in college curriculums ensures every student is equipped for financial independence.
- Identity-driven habits: Teaching students to align their financial behaviors with empowered identities like “savvy money manager” or “confident investor.”
About the Author
Dr. Kristen Carioti is a Sage author, Dean of the School of Arts and Sciences at Mount Mary University, and a passionate advocate for financial literacy. With over two decades of teaching experience, she specializes in personal finance, applied economics, and creating inclusive learning environments. Dr. Carioti is dedicated to equipping students with the tools they need to build lasting financial independence, inspiring them to think of themselves as savvy investors and confident decision-makers.
Beyond academics, she enjoys weightlifting, journaling, and spending time with her family. Her textbook, Introduction to Personal Finance: A Step-by-Step Guide to Financial Freedom, empowers learners to make informed financial choices with clarity and confidence.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:21
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo, Sage Faculty Partner and Associate Professor of Instruction at the University of Texas at Dallas
Welcome to the Sage College Publishing Podcast, where we explore ideas and insights to support instructor and student success through meaningful conversations. Hi everyone, I am Kathryn Lookadoo. I am a Sage Faculty Partner for business and I'm also an Associate Professor of Instruction in the Naveen Jindal School of Management at the University of Texas at Dallas, where I teach business, communication, professional development, and leadership.
00:00:24:23 - 00:00:51:22
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Today, we are tackling a topic that impacts everyone, but it is especially crucial for students: financial literacy. It's about more than just managing a budget. It's about equipping students with tools to make informed decisions, achieve financial security, and thrive well beyond graduation. Financial literacy empowers students, regardless of their starting point, to build a stronger future. It will also explore essential financial skills for students.
00:00:51:22 - 00:01:13:28
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
The role of technology in teaching those skills, and how colleges can provide resources that meet the diverse needs of their student populations. Joining me today is Dr. Kristen Carioti, the Dean of the School of Arts and Sciences at Mount Mary University. Kristen has a strong background in economics and a mission to make financial literacy accessible for all students.
00:01:14:00 - 00:01:40:17
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
She is dedicated to equipping young people with the practical tools they need to build a secure financial future outside of her academic work. Kristen enjoys weightlifting, journaling, and spending time with her family. Kristen, we're so excited to have you, for this important discussion. I've shared a little bit about you, but I'd love, before we dive into questions, if you could just tell listeners a little bit more about your story and what drew you to teaching applied economics?
00:01:40:20 - 00:02:03:06
Dr. Kristen Carioti, Sage Author and Dean of the School of Arts and Sciences at Mount Mary University
Yeah. Hi, Kathryn, thanks for having me. Happy to be here. I, have been teaching, for about 20 years. Finding ways to teach personal finance. In just about every class that I teach. However, I've only been teaching the personal finance course for about four years. We actually didn't have a personal finance course until 2021 when I created it and realized that, the books out there, they just didn't really meet my students where they're at. So I decided to, write my book with sage, and I've been using it for about four years.
00:02:18:06 - 00:02:38:26
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Well, awesome. I love that you kind of, like, found a hole and you're like, nope, someone's not doing this. We need to fill this. That's totally cool. So, it's clear that helping students master financial literacy is at the heart of what you do. So my first question is, why do you see financial literacy as such an essential skill for students today? And how can learning it in college make a difference even like years down the road?
00:02:44:01 - 00:03:12:08
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Yeah, I think it's always been important for college students, but I think especially because the college student demographic has changed, that, our students need it even more. The college student population is becoming increasingly diverse. We have more Pell eligible students, more first-generation students. A lot of my students work, one if not two jobs, and they have a lot of family responsibilities. So for a lot of my students, all they know is living paycheck to paycheck. So that means, like, they spend what they earn and consistently have little to no income leftover at the end of the month. So, like an inability to cover emergency expenses. And the problem with that is that it becomes a trap, right. Because then you have to use debt like a credit card or a personal loan to cover any emergency that comes up.
00:03:39:08 - 00:04:03:24
Dr. Kristen Carioti
So this is so common for my students. It's common for most Americans. 63% of, Americans live paycheck to paycheck. So I want students to know that that is it's not how it has to be and that there is another way to get out of that trap. The consequences of that trap are, you know, I mean, you're having to work so much longer. It's stressful. It's, you know, hard on your mental health. So there are so many consequences there. And, I just want all of my students to have access to the tools for personal finance. And, and I think that is that, that it's the order in which you do things becomes so important because otherwise personal finance becomes like, do this, do that, do this, do that, like your all the things you have to do.
00:04:29:20 - 00:04:49:28
Dr. Kristen Carioti
But I found that my students sort of struggle with like, in what order do you do things? And so I wanted to make it accessible. So that everyone could feel like this was for them, that they could do this, regardless of their income, regardless of their debt, that there was a way out of living paycheck to paycheck.
00:04:50:00 - 00:05:06:29
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Wow. Yeah, that sounds so empowering to, like, even just, like, have students kind of walk through a plan and think, like, I can do this. Yeah. And that 63% number. I didn't think I knew that. That's so large. So it's like you're just kind of chipping away at that with, with every question.
00:05:07:02 - 00:05:32:06
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I found that most students come into the classroom with really a range of, lived experiences. And, you know, I don't want them to get caught on. Okay, well, you know, this was, I had this, you know, you know, not ideal, money history or my parents need to tell me some things that I have to unlearn.
00:05:32:08 - 00:05:36:20
Dr. Kristen Carioti
I want everyone to feel like a bright financial future is available to them.
00:05:36:23 - 00:05:56:01
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Yeah. Like it's. You can do this. And having someone kind of walk you through that is so important. Okay, so my next question is, from your experience, what are kind of the must have financial skills that students should leave college with? And, you know, as an instructor, how do we kind of teach others those skills so that they can stick?
00:05:56:04 - 00:06:19:09
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Yeah. So definitely fundamental is an emergency fund and, using a budget. So I use zero based budgeting, which is kind of the most popular way of learning, how to budget, or most accessible. I think even to not talk about those things, but I think there's the kind of like, standard and maybe a little bit boring.
00:06:19:16 - 00:06:42:21
Dr. Kristen Carioti
So I'm gonna talk about three other things. So I'd say number one, a skill is really to come into, personal finance education with a growth mindset. So, you know, everyone can learn personal finance. You can learn from your mistakes. You can keep going. And so I talk about, like, what's the difference in a growth mindset and a fixed mindset?
00:06:42:24 - 00:07:04:16
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Because unlike a lot of subjects, like students have been using money, they've been working. They've been, you know, all this money experience coming into the class, right? So, versus like, maybe if they're taking a biology course or a psychology course, you know, they have this limited experience, but like, there's all this sort of baggage or history that they bring into it.
00:07:04:16 - 00:07:28:08
Dr. Kristen Carioti
And so we talk a lot about, having a growth mindset so that they can look back and examine their money history and look at those stories, maybe that they're telling themselves about money and some of those poor habits. Examining those before they get to their, you know, envisioning their money future. So we talk about money mistakes quite a bit because making mistakes is like, so normal.
00:07:28:08 - 00:07:50:17
Dr. Kristen Carioti
And I want to I want to normalize that. So I talk about my own mistakes. So that they, you know, and when they talk about the ones that they've made or maybe the ones that their parents have made, just so that we can kind of get through, like making mistakes as normal. But if we can adopt a growth mindset, then we can still we can just learn from those mistakes and move on and move forward.
00:07:50:19 - 00:08:02:03
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Yeah, absolutely. I feel like there's a resiliency there that you're building in, like with the first step, right? Like we all make mistakes, but that doesn't paralyze you. You can just kind of keep going. But we figure out how to do that.
00:08:02:05 - 00:08:23:21
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Yeah. Like don't lose five years, of like, time that your investments can be in the market because you've, like, made the mistake. Like, you can still, get back on track and you can still, you know, make these positive decisions in the future. I'm gonna talk about investing, too. So, that's another thing I think that's really important for students.
00:08:23:23 - 00:08:46:13
Dr. Kristen Carioti
I teach at a women's college. And so, like, the research shows that women invest less, and they start later in life. And I tell my students that, I tell them, you know, here's what here's what the data show, and this isn't going to be you because, you know, you're going to learn about investing.
00:08:46:13 - 00:09:10:23
Dr. Kristen Carioti
And I really want them to see themselves as an investor. Because I think sometimes there's just, you know, this feeling of like, oh, it's scary. It's risky. That's what that's for other people. But it's maybe not for me. I want my students to know that, or to understand that you can't save your way to retirement. You can't save your way to wealth.
00:09:10:26 - 00:09:38:16
Dr. Kristen Carioti
You have to invest. And that's how people do it. And that that is the that's what they're going to have to do, too. So again, using that growth mindset, normalizing mistakes, and you know, really just teaching them about the power of time in the market and investing basic tax advantages of like IRAs and 401Ks and why those matter. So we spend a lot of time on the identity of an investor so that they feel empowered.
00:09:45:12 - 00:09:58:27
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Awesome. That's really cool. I'm just trying to think of like, especially just like the history of women and finances. I mean, it I think at what age or what year was it that women could start opening their own credit card account like that's.
00:09:59:00 - 00:10:00:10
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Yeah. Not too long ago.
00:10:00:14 - 00:10:14:07
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Yeah, I think it was in the 70s. Hopefully I'm right on that. But like and so institutionally and just like societally like that hasn't been in our mindset. So pointing that out I think it's so important. That's really cool.
00:10:14:09 - 00:10:45:22
Dr. Kristen Carioti
There's this great book, called Think Like a Breadwinner, by Jennifer Barrett, and she talks about how, you know, historically, women don't, take as much ownership of their careers and their income. And there's all this data that shows that, like, you know, even if you are a dual income earner or, you're not you're not maybe the breadwinner at some point, it's likely that a lot of women will be, for all sorts of reasons.
00:10:45:24 - 00:11:09:15
Dr. Kristen Carioti
And so prioritizing income, we talk a lot about in the class as well, negotiating your salary. I mean, these are all things that, you know, if you're teaching only women or you're teaching men and women, you know, what don't you want? You know that, those men to also empower the women in their lives, so that they're also, you know, taking ownership of their career and their, their income as well.
00:11:09:17 - 00:11:30:20
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Yeah. Similarly, in my class, I teach LinkedIn and professional development and promoting yourself and a lot of the messaging in media for women on, you know, what to do on LinkedIn. It's a little bit different from for men. And so they aren't as comfortable putting themselves out there. And that also creates disadvantages in there. So it's, I'm with you following all of that. Very cool. I mean, not cool, but like so interesting.
00:11:36:18 - 00:11:37:09
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Got it. Yeah.
00:11:37:12 - 00:11:56:18
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Yeah. Oh, man. Did you have anything else that you wanted to add? I so you covered growth mindset. You covered, the idea of, like, women changing their mindset or just everyone seeing themselves as investors and kind of giving themselves that empowerment. Was there anything else you wanted to cover with the skills that they need?
00:11:56:20 - 00:12:18:24
Dr. Kristen Carioti
I mean, I would just say to the like, the fundamentals don't change. But so things like emergency fund using a budget, those, you know, are the most important tools to get there. And so, you know, just because I didn't talk about them doesn't mean that those are like the things that you absolutely have to cover for.
00:12:18:25 - 00:12:42:18
Dr. Kristen Carioti
So in the book, there's these, this like, checklist approach to financial freedom. And, having the emergency fund is, you know, number one, you have to have a basic emergency fund. So the first step of getting out of a paycheck to paycheck trap, is to be able to have enough money to cover 1 or 2 small emergencies so that you're not relying on credit card debt.
00:12:42:18 - 00:13:03:10
Dr. Kristen Carioti
So also a big focus. And every student I hope in my courses leaves with some basic emergency fund, even if they can't fund, you know, a large account, just even opening an account and understanding where it should be, that it should be in a separate savings account. It could be in a high yield account, in a different bank.
00:13:03:10 - 00:13:43:11
Dr. Kristen Carioti
We talk a lot about banks. We talk about credit unions, and just access to like financial services. So many of my students to come from families where maybe they're, they've been exposed to, like, alternative financial services like payday loan, stores and check cashing. And so we talk about these, services in the context of, like, you know, why people use these services, and really approach it from like, let's not shame people that, you know, why maybe your parent or your aunt or your grandma, use this service.
00:13:43:11 - 00:14:10:19
Dr. Kristen Carioti
But how traditional banking and traditional financial services are available or conventional to everyone. And, kind of just talk about what those dangers are without trying to shame anybody for, you know, past, uses of really predatory, lending practices and these other, you know, financial services, alternative financial services.
00:14:10:22 - 00:14:33:22
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Yeah. I've absolutely. When you first were talking about that, my first thought was the word predatory. And so yeah, I don't I mean, I understand like not shaming, not making them feel like bad for anything, but also like being aware and almost like an inoculation against like, hey, and as long as you know what these are doing and what your other options are like, let's try to make, a a better choice for your future.
00:14:33:25 - 00:14:34:20
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Yeah.
00:14:34:22 - 00:14:49:24
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Yeah. Absolutely. Awesome. All right. My next question goes a little bit in a different direction. And it's what we this technology play in financial literacy. So meaning how is it, you know helping or complicating all these skills that you're teaching.
00:14:49:26 - 00:15:33:04
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Yeah. You know I think like everything it's like it starts right. It's like good and it's bad. You know, there are so many positives and and advantages, but then there's also, you know, disadvantages. So I'll start with some advantages. Definitely increased accessible with like online platforms, mobile apps, gamification simulations. I try to show my students like online calculators as often as possible because, I want them to know, like, okay, what's the tool that you would go to and use when you're buying a car, when you're making a plan to pay off two different credit cards?
00:15:33:07 - 00:15:56:27
Dr. Kristen Carioti
And so we are always pulling up like online calculators versus trying to calculate something ourselves. I mean, we do some basic calculations by you're going to in real life, you're going to pull up an online calculator. Right. And so we do a lot of that together. Pull up the calculator, put in different inputs. And so that's an advantage.
00:15:57:00 - 00:16:16:04
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Because it's just knowing like, okay, what's the language that they're using. What's the language that you have. And how do we, you know, get an answer? How do we play with the online calculator so that maybe changes input? How does that change the, the answer how does that change, like what the graph looks like.
00:16:16:06 - 00:16:47:21
Dr. Kristen Carioti
And so that's awesome. That's a great part of technology because it can become so personalized. Right. And there's, you know, lots of AI powered tools that can do that too. How it's complicated things. You know, I do try to talk a lot about, security, and scams in the book because they're just so rampant. Scammers are really good at figuring out, you know, what's the next way to, you know, do their business and they're really good at it.
00:16:47:21 - 00:17:15:29
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Right? So tons of misinformation, tons of opportunity for, scammers to take advantage of people. I was just reading about this, president of a bank and, and like a small town in Kansas who was involved in a cryptocurrency scam. And it just shows you like this is like a this is a financially, you know, sophisticated banker who was involved in this scam.
00:17:15:29 - 00:17:43:07
Dr. Kristen Carioti
So talk a lot about that. A lot of, just like consumer protection, you know, it's it's it's information overload. It's like social media mixed messages on like what to do with your money. So, you know, good and bad. But I think it's just a matter of having some digital literacy around, like, what is a reliable source?
00:17:43:07 - 00:17:52:25
Dr. Kristen Carioti
What is like correct information, what's misinformation, and how do you distinguish, the two different ones. So yeah, long, long winding answer.
00:17:52:25 - 00:18:09:07
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
But but an important one. Yeah. As you were talking, I was thinking about like, whatever, I encounter some sort of scam. It's always like fear based and they're trying to pressure me in some way so that I quickly give away that information. I'm sure that's not all the scams, but those are usually the two hallmarks that I look for.
00:18:09:07 - 00:18:31:04
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
And then I try to Google like what this kind of is and that can help. But I really love the idea of calculators. I think that also, you know, helps again, because it sounds like your message is more about like empowerment, like you know how to do this, even if you've made mistakes, you can you can do this investing and having those tools and knowing where to go already really helps.
00:18:31:04 - 00:18:55:24
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Just kind of level that playing field to for people. Yeah. That's awesome. All right. My next question is more about like the college level in financial literacy. So like what is working? Well, at colleges when it comes to financial literacy and what are some practical steps that instructors or students can take to even push for stronger resources on campus?
00:18:55:26 - 00:19:21:11
Dr. Kristen Carioti
I'm at this like, small, very small institution, that I love. And we don't have a ton of, campus resources in the space of personal finance. But I will say that we've done what I think is, like, the most important thing you can do, and that is just require personal finance across the board for all students.
00:19:21:13 - 00:19:56:11
Dr. Kristen Carioti
So we we revised our core curriculum. We just finalized it a few months ago, and it goes into effect, in fall 2025, every student will take personal finance their sophomore, junior, senior year. It's a three credit course. Regardless of your major or your age. You have to take this course. I find it like our institutions responsibility to require the course, given our student demographic, that, you know, we say that we educate women to transform the world and that we educate the whole person.
00:19:56:13 - 00:20:24:01
Dr. Kristen Carioti
And, you know, you can't you can't transform the world if you're living paycheck to paycheck. And so I'm so glad that, that we, that we've made this required course because it allows us to make sure that, like, we're not we're not it's not an option of someone, you know, a student like, I know this is good for me, but I, you know, and I would take the course because I, you know, I don't have room for it in my schedule or whatever that it just becomes.
00:20:24:03 - 00:20:53:02
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Everybody takes the course. So I'm really proud of that. It aligns with our mission and it aligns with, our student demographic. I think that's one of the most practical things you can do. It is not easy to change a core curriculum or like a Gen ed, curriculum. You can add it to majors. So one thing campuses can do or, like programs can do at the program level, is require a personal finance course as part of their major curriculum.
00:20:53:05 - 00:21:26:12
Dr. Kristen Carioti
If it's not in their Gen ed. So beyond that, I would say I don't know a lot about the other resources because I'm not at a big school, but I am going to, a conference this summer to learn about that. It is the higher education Financial Wellness Alliance summit. And, I'm really interested to hear about a lot of these resources because I know schools will use like peer mentors, and they have like a financial literacy center.
00:21:26:15 - 00:21:39:16
Dr. Kristen Carioti
And probably your school has something like that. So I'm excited to learn more about those. And I'm actually going to be presenting a presentation on requiring a personal finance course, as part of a core or gen ed curriculum.
00:21:39:18 - 00:22:06:09
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Yeah, that sounds really cool. I, like you mentioned I'm at a larger institution, and I know we have some student programs that kind of cover that area, but I don't think we have a required course like you do. And that would that would be really cool to see happen. Especially because I like you, kind of already mentioned when students are coming in with debt or taking on student loans like it, it's so essential to have that grounding of financial literacy.
00:22:06:09 - 00:22:24:04
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
I think it's really helpful there. I was already thinking as you were talking, my my husband's an engineer. I'm a, you know, my background's in communications specifically, and I never had a class like this. I remember when we were first trying to, like, figure out our finances, we were both like, what? What do we do? We've never had this yet.
00:22:24:06 - 00:22:24:24
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Yeah.
00:22:24:26 - 00:22:35:20
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Best practices to learn it. And middle school, high school and college because it money never goes away. Right. It's never like oh I learned it.
00:22:35:25 - 00:22:39:01
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Dun dun expert. Got it. Yeah.
00:22:39:01 - 00:23:01:20
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Yeah. You have to keep learning and you have to, you know, learn with like where you are in your life stage. And so, you know, that's why we, we set our prerequisites, like, we really want, to the ticket. Kind of like later, like junior, senior year, closer to their career, the start of their career, because we want them to get into their jobs and negotiate for their salary.
00:23:01:20 - 00:23:33:17
Dr. Kristen Carioti
We want them to, sign up for their 401 K match right away. Have a Roth IRA in place. Like all these, you know, important things that are normal for some students or their parents maybe taught them. We can't assume that, our students are getting that financial background from their parents. And maybe they still are, but, like, you know, did you always listen to what your parents said?
00:23:33:20 - 00:23:34:08
Dr. Kristen Carioti
I mean.
00:23:34:10 - 00:23:36:13
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
I did not.
00:23:36:15 - 00:23:43:14
Dr. Kristen Carioti
Teach me about the stock market when I was like 16. And I was like, whatever, dad, you know? But like, now, I mean, he was right.
00:23:43:17 - 00:23:59:26
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Yeah, I know my students do that too. Like, I'll tell them how to fix a resume. And they're like, well, my dad said that, but I didn't believe them. I was like, you're at that age. Yeah. So it's nice that they're getting it from somewhere else. And maybe they do things exactly like they've learned. Oh, man. Yeah. Well, that wraps up today's questions.
00:23:59:26 - 00:24:11:01
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Kristen, a big thank you for sharing your thoughts on financial literacy to our audience. And before we go, did you have any final thoughts or final takeaways you wanted to give our audience?
00:24:11:03 - 00:24:41:17
Dr. Kristen Carioti
For final thoughts? I would say to, think about your identity as a way to form your habit. So thinking about like, I am someone who cooks healthy meals or I'm someone who, brushes their teeth twice a day or whatever, is to think about yourself as, savvy with money. Think about yourself as an investor. I'm a person who prioritizes my, financial future, not just my present self.
00:24:41:19 - 00:25:03:21
Dr. Kristen Carioti
So that when you get stuck on social media or like, you know, you're wanting to buy the next, like, style of whatever outfit, that you're your identity becomes, you know, the goals that you have for your financial future. That's helped me a lot. And, something I try to instill in my students.
00:25:03:24 - 00:25:25:19
Dr. Kathryn Lookadoo
Well, that's wonderful. And that gives us plenty to think about. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to check out Kristen's textbook, Introduction to Personal Finance A Step by Step Guide to Financial Freedom. Available at collegepublishing.sagepub.com. And don't forget to subscribe to the Sage College Publishing Podcast. We are putting out a variety of interesting content. Next time, Kristen will be back with us, and we'll unpack student loan debt from myths to realities to strategies for repayment. Until then, keep learning and empowering others towards financial confidence.